TradeMutt & TIACS: breaking down barriers

Rebecca Archer

Welcome to The Remarkables – Grant Thornton’s podcast that seeks to uncover stories about remarkable people doing incredible things for their community, bettering the world for future generations and inspiring others to do the same.

Please note that this episode will cover mental health and suicide themes, which can be distressing. If you need support, please go to beyondblue.org or, Lifeline on 13 11 14 for 24 hour free counselling in Australia.

I’m Rebecca Archer and today I’m joined by Dan Allen, cofounder of the social enterprise TradeMutt – a brand that aims to reduce the rate of blue-collar suicides in Australia through uniquely designed workwear.

Not only do they have the workwear brand, but they have also started This Is A Conversation Starter – a not-for-profit mental health organisation that is a text and call offering where tradies can access mental health services for free. The charity is funded using 50 per cent of the profits made from TradeMutt.

Thanks for joining us Dan – we’re excited to have you on the show to hear more about what you do.

Dan Allen

No worries, Rebecca, it's great to be here. Looking forward to diving in and having a bit of yarn.

Rebecca Archer

Excellent. Now trademark has been established for quite some time. How did it all come to be?

Dan Allen

This is a long story, right, but I'll try and keep it sharp for you. So basically, I mean, I'm a carpenter by trade – I was a carpenter for 11 years before starting TradeMutt, and I guess the story for TradeMutt really started when myself and my co-founder Ed Ross met on a building site in 2014 here in Brisbane.

We were the two newbies on site; we were starting working for a builder on the same day together and we got lumped together because, you know, we were the newbies, so we were off and racing. He's from Longreach, I'm from Western Sydney – there wouldn’t have been too many reasons why we would have crossed paths, but you know, something brought us together that day, and I think a little spark was lit there.

So, we formed a great mate ship on site, you know, we would get through our days talking absolute nonsense, and you know, one of the things that we used to talk about was, why is no one ever changed high-vis workwear? Why are we wearing the same stuff to work? And up until that point, it had never been done, and that was just an idea that we just had, you know, swirling around, we kind of thought nothing of it, because it wasn't really a logical career progression for us to go from carpentry to workwear.

But I suppose it was in 2015 when I lost one of our best minds to suicide, which was the start of the mental health journey for both myself and Ed. That was something that came, you know, really unexpectedly – out of the blue, and that was my first experience with suicide, and definitely experienced the complex range of emotions following that. And I guess it was a bit of a different experience for both myself and Ed because at the time, me and him were working together seven days a week, we were working for builder, you know, from 6am till 4pm, and then we’d knock off. So, he was kind of my number one support network in those times, and he was the one who had to deal with me rocking up to site just bawling, you know, bursting into tears, and, you know, bawling my eyes out when I was processing it all. So, it was tough for him as well, but we experienced it both in different ways.

Fast forward, probably about a year, as I said, we were working really hard together, we were saving cash together, we wanted to start a business, but we didn't know what it was. But we started to explore this idea of workwear, and we started doing designs and this kind of stuff – they were very poor hand drawn designs, and it was that kind of point in time where we were kind of meeting people and asking questions, and we learn about this concept of social enterprise, and it wasn't a model of business that we were familiar with at all. But given what had happened, having lost my mate, and given this idea, we wanted to create some funky work wear – the two worlds started to sort of collide and the story started to unfold I think from that point.

We thought, well, if we're going to make you know, funky, you know, high vis work wear, maybe we can use it for something positive and help us to start conversations about mental health and so that's what it became: TradeMutt – a social enterprise workwear company by tradies for tradies, to make funky, eye catching workwear designed to start conversations about mental health on a daily basis. And, as we say, making an invisible issue impossible to ignore. So that's kind of started a whole – yeah so, five and a half years deep now, and yeah, we've managed to do some amazing things.

Rebecca Archer

First of all, so sorry for the loss of your friend – that’s an awful thing to go through, but good on you for sort of using that experience for good. And I wonder what it was like for you both going from employees to then mounting this amazing company, and then a social enterprise campaign as well. How do you even bridge that gap?

Dan Allen

Yeah, well, by diving headfirst and just navigating and problem solving along the way, and I think that's probably been our biggest experience to date through business. is that business is about persistence and problem solving every day. And I think when that fire burns out, then you probably need to give it a break, you know, and so that's what our story's been.

It's just been, you know, overcoming the next hurdle as it comes and asking for help, like reaching out for help, like not trying to do it alone. Like, I mean, our whole philosophy around employing people is – and I don't think it's an uncommon one – but it's, you know, we hire people who are far smarter than us, you know, in areas of business that we know nothing about, because we can't do it without them. And we make sure that our, you know, our people know that, you know, we can't be expected to know how to do everything from, you know, design and manufacturing, and marketing and sales, and that whole world, we've just navigated the whole thing. So, it's been a real, you know, a journey of growth for both myself and Ed – both professionally and personally.

And it's kind of funny, you know, we're in the space of mental health, and I think, in that time, we've been on such a deep mental health journey of our own in terms of learning the business of mental health, and, you know, the TIACS counselling service that we've established, but then also, the stresses and the hardships that we face personally through the business journey, and the support that we've had to get outside of here to be able to, you know, help manage ourselves through that. So, it's been a real journey.

Rebecca Archer

So, Dan can you talk to us a little bit about the mechanics of your charity? How exactly does it work?

Dan Allen

So, the name of the of the organisation is called TIACS, right, and that's derived from across the back of our shirts, emblazoned across our workwear, This is a Conversation Starter. So, we sort of bridge that divide there. So it's called TIACS, which comes from This as a Conversation Starter, but the mechanics of TIACS, how it actually works – so, we run a nonprofit business, and we run it, just like a business, you know, I think sometimes the word charity can be bit misconstrued. And I think it's, you know, can be associated with rattling tins for donations and having volunteers running the whole thing.

But that's not what TIACS is.

TIACS is a professional service, and it's a nonprofit business run as such. So, we've got a team of counsellors who are all qualified counsellors – they’re not all full time, but they're all employed, yeah, on a permanent basis, and we've got a lean team – a lean management team of a Head of Partnerships Manager and our Clinical and Governance Manager, and then myself and Ed who sort of over the top as Directors of that as well.

So, we want to make sure it's a nice lean model, and that, I mean, we highly value a donated dollar. So, we’re incredibly tight, I guess, with how we spend our money, because we want to make sure that you know, donors get return on investment – so, that's a big thing for us.

Rebecca Archer

Are there any other mental health charities in the space that do what you do? I sort of can't think of any; nothing springs to mind. And I'm wondering as well, how many people have you helped? And what's the sort of feedback that you get when people realise that this service is actually out there?

Dan Allen

In terms of the question of are there other charities out there, are nonprofits doing it like us? It's hard to I really can't answer that question. In terms of the service we provide, no. I can guarantee that we’ve got incredibly high quality of care. We've got a few differentiating factors that we really saw were gaps, you know, in this market that needed to be filled, you know, like speaking to the same counsellor every time, no need for referrals, and it's obviously free but professional – and what was the second part of that question?

Rebecca Archer

Oh, just have sort of feedback – that the number of people you've helped and the feedback.

Dan Allen

So, we took our first call on the 8 June 2020. We had, at the time, we had one psychologist, and we had a CEO. The person who called TIACS that day was a builder on a construction site here in Brisbane, who was experiencing a panic attack. He knew about TradeMutt; he jumped on the website, he found his way through TIACS, and that was our first call.

Since that day, we've supported almost 17,000 individuals who need counselling services and the average number of sessions any one of those individuals is having, its four sessions. So, they're actually engaging with the process of not just, you know, coming in doing it once and then buggering off – they’re actually coming back and doing it. So, you know, that's awesome. And the number one reason why tradies are calling our service is for relationships. That's the number one identifying symptom, and then obviously, you know, these individuals work with our counsellors to help sort of unpack, you know, what's going on underneath.

Rebecca Archer

And do you think that the knowledge about the service is very much word of mouth? Oh, look, I you know, I called this service, and it was really great, or how is the word getting out there?

Dan Allen

So that's our goal completely to be, you know, the mental health support service that people tell their mates about. That's our vision at TIACS, you know, and that's a huge measure for us because that means two things: if people are telling their mates about it, it means the quality of care is such that they would tell other people about it. The other reason why that's important is once people are telling their mates about it, that's actually bringing down those social barriers to talking about actually seeking help – not just talking about needing to talk about mental health, but talking about your experience of seeking help.

Rebecca Archer

And do you think that that sort of stigma around not talking about your feelings has changed and is continuing to change? It's sort of tends, I think, to be one of those industries where, you know, it's quite male dominated, people might not feel very comfortable being vulnerable and expressing their emotions about things that are going on in their life. How different do you think it is now from even say, five or 10 years ago? And do you think it will continue to get better?

Dan Allen

I think, yeah, we're making huge, massive steps. I mean, I was only having this conversation yesterday with one of our staff members, and I look at like, you know, Are You Okay Day and when that started, and that just started as an idea of, you know, let's have a day to, you know, have conversations and like, you know, organisations like those guys have paved the way for, you know, so many other organisations as well to pop up and build off it and start filling, you know, the gaps, you know, where that you know, where they need to be filled. And so the evolution is happening, you know – it’s happening fast.

I think in terms of the notion of people talking about their feelings, I think, like, sometimes even just phrasing it or framing it as just talking about your feelings can be almost a bit of a turn off in a way because I think like, guys, you know, particularly in our cohort, or men and women, but you know, particularly the blokes, you know, find it hard to find those avenues to open up.

But once you sort of open those floodgates or provide that pathway to have a conversation, things genuinely pour out of them. So we see that a lot with our shirts, we use stories on a daily basis in our shirts on building sites, helping start those conversations, and then, you know, we've got the TIACS service behind that as well. So, if you have a conversation on site, and you need that further support, whether it's for you, or for a loved one, we've got TIACS there to be able to back that up too. So yeah, it's just about, you know, continuing the push, continuing to lead by example, trying to show people how to do it and just doing it yourself. And then, you know, everyone will just start to kind of cling on and get on board.

Rebecca Archer

What do you think is the best way to start a conversation about this? If you're noticing that a colleague on a worksite is maybe a little bit quiet, sort of going into themselves quite a bit, how should someone approach that person and sort of see if they're okay?

Dan Allen

Oh, I mean, there's any number of ways that you can sort of strike up a conversation. Obviously, time and place is crucial, you know, and tone and the way you approach someone like you can't, you know, you got to understand that, you know, like, if people are down, you know, they actually don't want people dragging stuff out of them, they probably just want, you know, an opportunity in a safe space to open up, you know – for that to happen naturally.

So, I think tread lightly is the key. And also, you know, don't go in gung ho and trying to fix the problems, but there's heaps of ways now that, you know, you can spark up a conversation with someone. Like a simple – it’s a colleague who you sort of close to, you might have their number, like a simple text message, you know, something that they can read, or just an invitation for, you know, a coffee or something sort of after hours, or even smoko together, you know, what I mean, anything like that. And I think one of the best ways is talking about your own struggles and your own challenges that you've had, you know, in your own experiences to help sort of, you know, bring down those barriers to someone else opening up about their own journey as well.

Rebecca Archer

What advice would you maybe give down to someone who is struggling right now and might be listening?

Dan Allen

Oh, look, for anyone who's struggling right now, you know, and that’s listening is I get it. I get how hard it is, you know, when you actually sort of in that, you know, that headspace and people can, you know, say throw away things about call this number or call that number. But, you know, I think it's about trying to find one positive thing that you can do for yourself, you know, just one positive thing, whether it's reaching out to, you know, a friend or a loved one, whether it's picking up the phone and having a yard with a TIACS counsellor, or you know, a colleague or you know, or even if it's just going outside and going for a walk and getting some fresh air, you know.

Just the small things that you can do for yourself just to kind of help improve that mindset and that frame of mind each day are really powerful.  And be forgiving, I think, forgive yourself, you know, for feeling the way that you feel, I think it's, you know, everyone's dealing with a lot out there. And we're only human and all we want to do is to be able to create, you know, avenues for people to go down and places to go when they do decide to seek help. So yeah, TIACS is always there, and we've got a great team of counsellors that we get really good feedback on, so yeah.

Rebecca Archer

I imagine, you mentioned that you got your first call on the 8 June in 2020 so we're talking about sort of three years ago, and the pandemic was certainly a time when trades people were some of the only people who were really getting so much work that they didn't know what to do with it, which I imagined could be quite stressful trying to manage all of the commitments you've got.

And also, you know, protect yourself and your family against the pandemic that was out there. How much do you think the advent of the pandemic actually affected people who were working in trades roles?

Dan Allen

Well, you're right, like the tradies were continuing to work during that time. You know, I think it was a lonely time really in those morning seeing all the tradie cars – there were only tradies on the road, you know.

So look, I think the whole community, you know, blue collar or otherwise experienced some major life changes in that whole period – it is very destabilizing, and I think whether you were still working or not, or whether it was access to information or being unsure about the future, and this kind of stuff, was incredibly destabilising time for a lot of people, and that had, you know, flow on effects in all areas of life, right. And I think when your foundations are fundamentally rocked, you know, it can have massive impacts on yourself and your identity.

So, it wasn't just the tradies out there, you know, who were working. I mean, they were experiencing crazy conditions in the building industry as well, and still are, you know, with the cost of building materials and access to labour and this kind of stuff. So, a whole range of challenges coming out of COVID. And, again, you know, we really promote the TIACS service as being there for people to proactively use – it's not a crisis support service. We're an early intervention counselling service, we're encouraging people to reach out early so sometimes you might not have the identifiable symptoms, or you know, the typical symptoms that people talk about, you know, when it comes to mental health, and that's okay. We want people to reach out to TIACS early, find out what it's about, find out what it's like to speak to a counsellor, find out the reasons why you might speak to a counsellor and just have a yarn. It's incredibly powerful.

Rebecca Archer

Have there been any moments in this whole journey, and I'm thinking specifically of the TIACS work that you've been doing, that have really stuck with you? You did mention that first call that you got, but over the years, have there been instances where you've had feedback or talk to someone at an event, perhaps, and it has just really stayed with you what your service has done to help them?

Dan Allen

Yeah, I'm just thinking right now, there's actually so many stages along the way, different stories that you hear. Probably the most recent one, I'd say was at the Trade Expo here in Brisbane – a young apprentice came up and had a yarn with me and Ed and you know, he said to us, guys, I just really want to say thanks. And then he, you know, went on to tell his story about now only 12 months earlier, he’d seen his father pass away, and that completely rocked his life rocked his world and destabilise his foundation as well.

He'd reached out to TIACS and was booked in for his eighth session with one of our counsellors, but it was just the way he was talking to us. I mean, he was talking to us so casually, just like you would at a pub, right, which is what we want. That's how we want people talking to us about mental health and reaching out for help.

But you know, he just couldn't have been more grateful because there was just no way that he would have been able to afford a service like that, counselling like that, you know, if it wasn't free. So that's exactly the reason why it exists to be able to get to, you know, the most vulnerable people in the community to make sure they know there's someone there.

So I mean, that was just sort of three weeks ago, right. But you know, there's countless other stories that we've, you know, heard and received over the years. But yeah, it's almost overwhelming at times, to be honest, like, we've actually really had to almost put up a shield at times in a way for us to be able to protect ourselves really, from the emotional magnitude of some of the stories that we do hear. So, you know, yeah, it's incredible, incredible to see.

Rebecca Archer

Now, Dan I know that you must be busy, you've got so much on your plate, so much to be across. But before we wrap up, I'm wondering, is there anything in the works later this year for TradeMutt? Any cool projects or initiatives that you've got in the pipeline?

Dan Allen

We do – we do have some very cool projects in the pipeline, but I can't talk about them. I can't talk about them just yet. They're under lock, they’re under lock and key, but two large national activations that will be happening the end of this year, and then the beginning of next year, which we're really, really pumped about – so yeah, all I can say there is watch this space. But in the meantime, you know, our priority here is to make sure that, you know, from a business front, both TradeMutt and TIACS, we've got all the right people in the right spot, all our people are sort of looked after and feel supported and to be able to, you know, continue to grow and scale the project that we've got going on here.

You know, we're expecting large growth in TIACS, you know, later this year and into next year. So, it's really about making sure we've got all our ducks in a row and everything's, you know, Mickey Mouse, because actually, there's a lot that goes into running a mental health support service.

Rebecca Archer

I can only imagine! Well look, if people are wanting to find out more about what it is that you're doing or to follow your journey, what's the best place for them to come and find you?

Dan Allen

TradeMutt and both TIACS are all over socials – TIACS, T I A C S. And TradeMutt – do I need to spell that one out? That's M U T T, like a dog. And obviously, yeah, just check out the websites. We've just launched a new TIACS website, which is great. So yeah, and if anyone wants to reach out to myself and Ed directly, the best way is through the TradeMutt website and just in the Contact Us form, and that'll get filtered straight through to us.

So yeah, if anyone wants to reach out, yeah, feel free. And then of course, if anyone wants to contact TIACS and find out what that service is, like, please – you’re not taking it away from anyone else. There's no one more important who needs it more than you. So, ring the number, connect with a counsellor find out what it's like to chat to a counsellor, have a yarn. You never know, it might just help you. It might just make you feel a bit better. So the number for TIACS is 04 8884 6988.

Rebecca Archer

Dan, thank you so much for your time. It's been amazing to speak to you today

Dan Allen

No dramas. Thanks so much Rebecca.

Rebecca Archer

If you liked this podcast and would like to hear more remarkable stories, you can find, like and subscribe to The Remarkables podcast by Grant Thornton Australia on Apple podcasts or Spotify.

Leave us a review or some ideas on who you'd like to hear from next. I'm Rebecca Archer, thank you for listening.